Cycling and Running Up Hill

[SEFTON]

trying to come back from a knee injury I've been mtb a bit.

I met with a local group and simply did'nt have the leg strength to keep up (having to get off & push on most climbs). I'd like to add most of these blokes where 10+ years older than me & some packing weight.

Before injury when running it was always my lungs that screamed out far far before leg strength.

[Dynamo Dan]

I apologise for the cut and paste job from the last time a similar discussed but I couldn't be bothered to type it all out again...

This is a really interesting thread and something that is continuously discussed amongst multi-sport athletes (triathletes/duathletes).

In simplistic terms it all boils down to the one of the three basic rules of training:
1) Progression
2) Overload
3) Specificity

(some folks also like to add recovery)

This states the very obvious fact that the best training for a particular activity is doing that activity. Therefore, for a healthy runner, cycling can never be a 100% satisfactory substitute. Muscle recruitment, impact etc are all very different. However, for an injured runner (especially an impact related injury) cycling can be ideal for keeping the CV system working effectively and maintaining muscular strength/endurance.

Where cycling can also be useful is to supplement running training. it is possible to add cycling training to increase training volume but without the associated risk of injury of ramping up the running mileage. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of it being very effective for improving climbing strength in particular. Personally, I often use an easy road spin as a recovery session from a hard/long run on the previous day and always find it to be beneficial.

Any form of cross-training (including weights etc) therefore will not have as much direct benefit to your chosen activity as actually doing it. However, and this is the best reason for including a variety of cross training activities, they will make you more robust. Because of the very specific demands of any sport, your body become very strong through the required range of movements of it. But, for movements outside of this range, it can really be quite pathetic. This is why many "sports injuries" are often traced back to events/stressors outside of the sport... sitting badly, picking up a child or kicking a football. I recently talked to a sports physio who worked with the GB canoe squad and their training motto was "robust or bust". This referred to the broad range of cross training activities to supplement the specific canoeing work.

Triathletes and Duathletes will always tend to bias their training to favour cycling volume. Long course triathletes (Ironman) will often ride longer in training than the 4-6 hours required in a race but will very rarely run for any longer than 2-2.5 hours (a sub 3 hour marathon at the end of an Ironman is pretty tasty). The main reasons for this are not that cycling is the best all round training or that cycling transfers to running but not vice versa. It's simply that 1) the bike leg is the longest and so will yield the greatest potential time gains. 2) The stronger you can get off the bike the better you will run. 3) Longs runs of more than 2-2.5 hours will not give you satisfactory fitness returns relative to the increased risk of injury.

OK... hypothetical time. Take an elite road cyclist and an elite road/track runner (as opposed to fell) and get them to swap disciplines. Who would perform better assuming neither had any previous experience/training in the others sport. We'd get the runner to do a flat 40km time-trial on the bike and the cyclist to run a flat 10km road run (although the run time would be shorter both events require working at a similar CV intensity). We'd then swap them back to their specialist sport and make comparisons. Well, this has been done a few times, and the consistent result is that the cyclist comes out on top. The usual reports back from the athletes are that the runner on the bike felt his heart/lungs were absolutely fine but he lacked the leg strength and that, although the cyclist running felt fine during, he was in tatters the next day. The runner lacked the muscular strength to push the big gear required for a fast 40km and the cyclist's muscles had never been exposed to repetitive impact before.... specificity.

What hasn't been tested, as far as I'm aware, is the same protocol but with a fell runner rather than a road runner. My prediction is that it'd be a much closer run thing because of the greater leg strength required for fell running. Again fell running has very specific demands. So a trained road runner wouldn't necessarily perform on the fells and vice versa.

Finally, don't ignore or discount personal experience. if it works for you stick with it. I've found that, for me, single-speed mountain biking compliments fell running well so that's what I do.

Surley someone knows a 1st cat/elite roadie and a top fell runner on here? Lets repeat the experiment and see how close together they finish!

There does seem to be a cross over, I seem to remember a GB pursuit rider in the 90s called Yvonne ??? who was a fell runner before cycling. There's also Rob Jebb and Nick Craig who's either at the front or near it when running for Pennine.

[Hanneke]

Yes, I know a 1st cat roadie and a top fell runner, both live reasonably close to here... but the fell runner also cycles whihc gives him an unfair advantage over the cyclist.... but will ask them if they'd give it a go, for the sake of experience...

From personal experience, I find cycling (I race) harder than fell running (I raced) and I also find that both actually convert very well to each other. I think fell running to riding a bike is a better conversion than road running to riding a bike, as for fell running you need stronger quads than for road running and you use your quad strength a lot in cycling...

Although I am now faster on my fell runs, I am not necessarily faster at running but am stronger at running uphill because of the cycling. I think I lost speed running but gained uphill strength. Because of the latter I can now run uphill for longer/steeper and am therefore faster over the whole run but only because I am faster on the uphills, if that makes sense?

I have just stopped cycling for a few weeks to convert back to fell running for the relays so working on getting some speed back at the moment, while retaining that uphill running strength... I do know that running makes me slower on the bike, as I did the same thing last year while training for Everest Marathon...

I do wish I could do both well though, as I am torn about what to do next season. I love racing my bikes but I also love racing on the fells and doing both just isn't an option...

[Hanneke]

I do bump into a few (ex) fellrunners in the cycling scene indeed... Yvonne Macgregor you mean?

Surley someone knows a 1st cat/elite roadie and a top fell runner on here? Lets repeat the experiment and see how close together they finish!

There does seem to be a cross over, I seem to remember a GB pursuit rider in the 90s called Yvonne ??? who was a fell runner before cycling. There's also Rob Jebb and Nick Craig who's either at the front or near it when running for Pennine.

[Graham Breeze]

I apologise for the cut and paste job from the last time a similar discussed but I couldn't be bothered to type it all out again...

This is a really interesting thread and something that is continuously discussed amongst multi-sport athletes (triathletes/duathletes).

In simplistic terms it all boils down to the one of the three basic rules of training:
1) Progression
2) Overload
3) Specificity

(some folks also like to add recovery)

This states the very obvious fact that the best training for a particular activity is doing that activity. Therefore, for a healthy runner, cycling can never be a 100% satisfactory substitute. Muscle recruitment, impact etc are all very different. However, for an injured runner (especially an impact related injury) cycling can be ideal for keeping the CV system working effectively and maintaining muscular strength/endurance.

Where cycling can also be useful is to supplement running training. it is possible to add cycling training to increase training volume but without the associated risk of injury of ramping up the running mileage. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of it being very effective for improving climbing strength in particular. Personally, I often use an easy road spin as a recovery session from a hard/long run on the previous day and always find it to be beneficial.

Any form of cross-training (including weights etc) therefore will not have as much direct benefit to your chosen activity as actually doing it. However, and this is the best reason for including a variety of cross training activities, they will make you more robust. Because of the very specific demands of any sport, your body become very strong through the required range of movements of it. But, for movements outside of this range, it can really be quite pathetic. This is why many "sports injuries" are often traced back to events/stressors outside of the sport... sitting badly, picking up a child or kicking a football. I recently talked to a sports physio who worked with the GB canoe squad and their training motto was "robust or bust". This referred to the broad range of cross training activities to supplement the specific canoeing work.

Triathletes and Duathletes will always tend to bias their training to favour cycling volume. Long course triathletes (Ironman) will often ride longer in training than the 4-6 hours required in a race but will very rarely run for any longer than 2-2.5 hours (a sub 3 hour marathon at the end of an Ironman is pretty tasty). The main reasons for this are not that cycling is the best all round training or that cycling transfers to running but not vice versa. It's simply that 1) the bike leg is the longest and so will yield the greatest potential time gains. 2) The stronger you can get off the bike the better you will run. 3) Longs runs of more than 2-2.5 hours will not give you satisfactory fitness returns relative to the increased risk of injury.

OK... hypothetical time. Take an elite road cyclist and an elite road/track runner (as opposed to fell) and get them to swap disciplines. Who would perform better assuming neither had any previous experience/training in the others sport. We'd get the runner to do a flat 40km time-trial on the bike and the cyclist to run a flat 10km road run (although the run time would be shorter both events require working at a similar CV intensity). We'd then swap them back to their specialist sport and make comparisons. Well, this has been done a few times, and the consistent result is that the cyclist comes out on top. The usual reports back from the athletes are that the runner on the bike felt his heart/lungs were absolutely fine but he lacked the leg strength and that, although the cyclist running felt fine during, he was in tatters the next day. The runner lacked the muscular strength to push the big gear required for a fast 40km and the cyclist's muscles had never been exposed to repetitive impact before.... specificity.

What hasn't been tested, as far as I'm aware, is the same protocol but with a fell runner rather than a road runner. My prediction is that it'd be a much closer run thing because of the greater leg strength required for fell running. Again fell running has very specific demands. So a trained road runner wouldn't necessarily perform on the fells and vice versa.

Finally, don't ignore or discount personal experience. if it works for you stick with it. I've found that, for me, single-speed mountain biking compliments fell running well so that's what I do.

Now and then postings like this remind me that the Forum can actually be illuminating.

[Dynamo Dan]

I do bump into a few (ex) fellrunners in the cycling scene indeed... Yvonne Macgregor you mean?

Thats the one! I might be wrong but im sure she came from a fell running background before becoming a pursuit rider.

[Hanneke]

Awesome cyclist! She was indeed initially a fell runner...

Thats the one! I might be wrong but im sure she came from a fell running background before becoming a pursuit rider.

[Deejay]

Probably means not a lot but I just went for my first cycle ride in over 30 years on Monday with a friend who is a keen cyclist. He started cycling 4 years ago at about the same time I started fell running and we both came from a mountaineering background where our fitness was about the same. We did a hilly-ish 60 miles and I found to my surprise I was slightly better than him on the climbs. He was impressed with how I managed to go uphill in a higher gear than he could. I might add this wasn't intentional on my part, I just wasn't very good at changing them! Had to work hard to keep up with him on the flat though.

[idler]

Singletrack magazine did a little timed comparison over a short course between a fell runner and montain biker a couple of years ago. It was a long way from scientific and not much more than a bit of fun. Wasted opportunity really.

Loved that post from Nikalas. I'd go further and say fixed has a good crossover. Has for me to the extent that it's now getting embarrassing how much worse than some people I am on the flat, compared to when I can use my hill strength (all relative, from mid-pack of course).

I had the interesting experience of riding in the Peak with a Commonwealth runner once. Didn't have much experience piloting a bike, but his engine was certainly in good shape ...till he bonked and ate every sugary thing around!

[stevefoster]

Been cycling for years, but since riding singlespeed cross bike and singlespeed mtb, my climbing has improved ever so slightly.
Don't know about fixed as both bikes have a freewheel, need another bike:wink: