Development of Young Athletes

[TurboTom]

I don't think that you are allowed on frontline fighting at 16 though!!

Aside from that, the rules are a one size fits all which is generally correct, yes there are exceptions who may do better and this is what a few here are arguing for but the FRA is not doing its job if it is reckless with future health. People here do have sympathies with your view.

Minor aside just to illustrate a point, I used to teach a pupil who was excellent at rugby (played England under 19s etc) he now plays professional for London Scottish, he had a training program from Saracens, who had signed him on schoolboy terms. He was not allowed to do certain strength exercises as Saracens did not believe his body was strong enough. At the time he was approx 15stone and 6ft4ish, he accepted the ruling went onto play England under 19s and now still plays (he's 23 now). Who is to say if he had done these exercises would he have survived in the game? I'd rather do little young and keep going for ages, than do it all young and have little elsde to aim for. Sorry Tom, you might be one of the exceptions who could have managed young but would all your fellrunning friends?
Hope Uni is going well.....

Rugby is slightly different for the simple reason that the impact is not merely the impact of running, but that of serious force being put upon the body.....if a predicate of fell running was that an 18 stone Phil Vickery would slam into you at regular intervals then fair enough.

The army example is fair, at 16, a recruit to the marines would be expected to hoist around a 60LB bergen across Dartmoor, much more of a stress.

In my experience those who dont train and express a wish to do longer races aren't interested, its not that they couldn't manage, its just that they cant be bothered....and every junior fell runner I know who has wanted to, has indeed made the step up...obviously there are learning curves, such as me blowing up in Ireland last year, or having total cramp on top of Helvellyn after doing a through the night BG recce, but its all experience that I got at 16-18 instead of having to suffer at 23 when I made a serious step into racing.

In fact id go as far as to say, that if longer distances aren't pushed early, there is less of a chance an athlete would turn to them as a senior, for it is much harder to adjust training when older and set in your ways, than it is younger.

[Witton Park]

Rugby is slightly different for the simple reason that the impact is not merely the impact of running, but that of serious force being put upon the body.....if a predicate of fell running was that an 18 stone Phil Vickery would slam into you at regular intervals then fair enough.

The army example is fair, at 16, a recruit to the marines would be expected to hoist around a 60LB bergen across Dartmoor, much more of a stress.

In my experience those who dont train and express a wish to do longer races aren't interested, its not that they couldn't manage, its just that they cant be bothered....and every junior fell runner I know who has wanted to, has indeed made the step up...obviously there are learning curves, such as me blowing up in Ireland last year, or having total cramp on top of Helvellyn after doing a through the night BG recce, but its all experience that I got at 16-18 instead of having to suffer at 23 when I made a serious step into racing.

In fact id go as far as to say, that if longer distances aren't pushed early, there is less of a chance an athlete would turn to them as a senior, for it is much harder to adjust training when older and set in your ways, than it is younger.

Do you know what it takes to just get in the Marines? The level of fitness before they will consider you would be probably sufficient to be a County Champion Cross Country runner in some areas.
That being said I do have sympathies with you Tom as you will know from some of my posts.

I have seen some ROs allow a parent to sign what they call a disclaimer and clearly from what has been said that isn't and shouldn't be allowed. But a coach is a different matter and Widdop is probably a very good example of one of those races that is an "M" that a competent U18 could handle.

[biara]

TT I have alot of sympathy for you and understand where you are coming from, I agree with you in many areas of your argument. I am also in agreement with others that maybe some M races a competent U18 can do, but others can't. You are a different standard to me, no arguments, my first half marathons I did aged 16 with my dad in races after getting permission from RO. I trained hard but was slow (even then I was still slow!!)

Maybe having VS, S, M and L races would be better, as it would allow more 'older juniors' to do longer races. I don't know the answers but you have to look at it from all areas as some may just think 'ooh long race let me have a go', then something negative happens and immediately people start asking was that a sensible choice for him/her, yes, far-fetched but also too plausible.

RE the rugby stength training, it was actually a type of arm exercise as the ligaments / tendons were not deemed to be strong enough to take the repeated load, the research had suggested that too much repeated load now, would lead to injury and problems in later life. Why I stated it, was too much by some athletes, could lead to injuries and problems in later life. How many sportsman who started young have ended up having problems in later life through wear and tear injuries? I don't know the figures, but I want to keep running and healthy as long as possible.

[Stolly]

My daughter is 17 and now plays open age women's rugby league and has done since the age of 16. Girls RL goes up to under 16 and thats it - its either make the jump to open age or give up. She was lucky enough to train with one of the top three womens sides from age 15 but the jump from one to the other was still huge. That said she made it though and is absolutely thriving.

So I don't think fell running needs to molly coddle over 16's.

[TurboTom]

Something I have advocated and I think should be treated with a little more importance is perhaps the need to introduce junior runners to the issues in senior fell running- perhaps FRA days where navigation, kit and the like is taught and enforced.....for instance I think it would be good if in at least 2 or 3 championship races a year, cags had to be carried, and the like....just to sort of prepare juniors for other aspects of senior racing.

[biara]

Something I have advocated and I think should be treated with a little more importance is perhaps the need to introduce junior runners to the issues in senior fell running- perhaps FRA days where navigation, kit and the like is taught and enforced.....for instance I think it would be good if in at least 2 or 3 championship races a year, cags had to be carried, and the like....just to sort of prepare juniors for other aspects of senior racing.

Clever, like that idea....

[OB1]

I was browsing the Gabrselassie vs Tergat article in this month's RW on the newsagents stand today.
Interesting seeing the different 'initiations to career' - Haile going AWOL to run a 'painful' marathon in Addis at 15 (against his dad's orders), and Paul leaving it to 22 to emerge as a 'surprise' at the National trials in Nairobberi. Now, I am not making any pro or con judgements / observations, just highlighting the article as it makes interesting reading, if you can browse a copy. Clearly echos many of the views / thoughts o this thread in different ways (we've all got a point in one way or another).
Comparisons aside, Horses for Courses at the start I'd say, and eventually Herses for Corpses at the end too, I suppose. Enjoy your run, however fast or far.

[Witton Park]

We seem to have settled on 2 issues that are worthy of further discussion.

U18s - it seems clear that there is a consensus that some options of some "M" races for them would be within their capabilities if the races were pre-selected carefully and the only real objection seems to be that the rules don't allow.

18 - U23 - the Champs isn't contested as much as we would like for a variety of reasons. Athletes in this age group are sometimes away at Uni, perhaps are more likely to be involved in other athletics discplines and even transport maybe an issue.
The Seniors have 6 races in the English Champs, so more options. If the U23 also had 6 races, more options to compete, and on the same 4 from 6 basis, then we may get a greater take up.
The addition of a further "S" and "M" cat race may be what is needed to add appeal to the U23 Champs.

[Track Fairy]

Once upon a time, many moons ago, I ran a full season of fellrunning as an 18yo that included several mediums (Fiendsdale, Kinder Downfall, Coniston, Fairfield) and a couple of Longs (Winter Hill, Three Shires). I wasn't particularly good at running at the time and not particularly well trained for them. Physically though, no problem whatsoever, got round them all comfortably and with enjoyment. 16 yos are allowed to run marathons aren't they?

However, the crucial thing is that I was lucky with the weather for most of them and only got clag once (Fairfield, which was an championship so you just followed people anyway). I can read a map. But if something had gone wrong that required mountain experience or judgement (sometimes its just about knowing when to stop) I'd have been woefully underprepared (and I was generally fairly sensible and well used to fellwalking with my family etc.)

I'd say that there's no problem with youngsters running mediums at times of year when the weather is likely to be decent and on courses where the consequences of doing something wrong are less significant. This could be at the organisers discretion. But I wouldn't send one round Borrowdale.

[Witton Park]

Once upon a time, many moons ago, I ran a full season of fellrunning as an 18yo that included several mediums (Fiendsdale, Kinder Downfall, Coniston, Fairfield) and a couple of Longs (Winter Hill, Three Shires). I wasn't particularly good at running at the time and not particularly well trained for them. Physically though, no problem whatsoever, got round them all comfortably and with enjoyment. 16 yos are allowed to run marathons aren't they?

However, the crucial thing is that I was lucky with the weather for most of them and only got clag once (Fairfield, which was an championship so you just followed people anyway). I can read a map. But if something had gone wrong that required mountain experience or judgement (sometimes its just about knowing when to stop) I'd have been woefully underprepared (and I was generally fairly sensible and well used to fellwalking with my family etc.)

I'd say that there's no problem with youngsters running mediums at times of year when the weather is likely to be decent and on courses where the consequences of doing something wrong are less significant. This could be at the organisers discretion. But I wouldn't send one round Borrowdale.

For those that don't know, TF is a very accomplished endurance athlete operating at the highest levels nationally.

I agree with you fully and I wouldn't dream of considering putting a young runner forward for a race that was likely to be beyond them. Fairfield is a great example of one of those races that can be fairly straight forward, but with bad weather extremely hazardous.
So as I've set out earlier, I suggest identifying some races in the calendar - this could be handled by a panel including the FRA Junior Co-ordinator, coaching co-ordinator and needs only to be 6 - 8 races in total.
My further caveat would be that a minimum level 2 coach would have to support the junior taking part in that race. I believe that would give appropriate cover that the race was appropriate and the athlete had sufficient experience.