Thanks for all the advice it is much appreciated I'll take note of those times Stolly plus also have a look at the splits of a few runners - only problem then would be to try and spot them at the start of the race!!!- I have got the feeling that people do go off like loons then pay for it later - I know I have been one of them in the past but on shorter races. I always find it mentally sapping when you might have overcooked it at the start then there are a constant stream of runners coming past you that you can do nothing about. I will be a happy man when I come in to the finish field again.