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Thread: New safety rules

  1. #1201
    alwaysinjured
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    Quote Originally Posted by MargC View Post
    With regard to improving the content of the "FRA Safety Requirements" one thing that struck me during the inquest was a need to stress to organisers the importance of accounting individually for each and every competitor at the end as a "did not start", did not finish (retired) or as a finisher with a time and any discrepancies resolved as quickly as possible. Since this is the end stop I think it should be differentiated from the monitoring at checkpoints round the course. !
    Thanks Margc

    I Entirely agree about the distinction, indeed the main takeaway has to be backup systems to maximise the likelihood of correct start / finish runner accounting.

    I have also thanked keith using the phrase " witness for police" rather than naming him, who I can state from dialogue with him, shares many of the concerns that I have about how the Way the rules can, were, and may in the future be used against an RO, and that ill thought out rule changes have made that likelihood greater.

    Grump - UKA statement sec 2 b item(vii) clearly states that the fact of an excess count by marshal 3 was stated in and of itself as "poor practise" to be prevented , then later referenced under failures of duty, and ascribed to lack of experience and training, rather than an inevitable fact of life it really is, from time to time occurring in practise.

    All marshalls should also be concerned by the fact that they too have the potential to be cited for failure of duty, leading to contributory cause - and the more onerous the new rules make a marshalls duty, the more likely that becomes.

    Old rule 13 clearly sets wrong expectation that such counting can be flawless, communications can be perfect, and so tracking should be efficient enough that an RO can instigate needs for search or rescue prior to race end. Which is a false expectation. No RO has ever achieved it in a way that made material difference to a life, as far as I am aware. So wrong expectation set by that rule is the problem for an RO that ,as a result ,wrongly made the coroners report.

    Had it been noted that all of these processes can be flawed, that additional runners can come through, runners can miss one checkpoint, reappear at another, numbers can Be and are misread, And off route and retiring runners often take hours to arrive back, then why would a coroner mention that failure to analyze that overcount ( rather than undercount ) as in any way material - when there is almost no possibility of a search being launched before race completion , or near completion in most races.

    The rules need to focus on what is Reasonably practicable, not a false ideal utopia, and focus on what actually matters. The focus on number attachment for exampke is a red herring when in poor weather some or many are wearing raingear, and no attachment method helps with mishearing, and misreading happens regardless.

    The most material matter in that unfortunate event is as margc points out - the start finish accounting, which needed to be more robust.

    So the rules DO matter, as does the wording of them. An RO can clearly be held to account for what the rules say we can do, even when we cannot.
    Last edited by alwaysinjured; 03-11-2013 at 11:37 PM.

  2. #1202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joan of Arc View Post
    Everybody on the planet who has seen a draft says it does not say "no hazards" but in fact the complete opposite.

    As I'm sure even you know by now so why keep on and on and on?
    That's the point how can anyone sign up for a draft set of rules....... that's just plain daft

  3. #1203
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    Question......
    1. The waltz is 11+ miles where in the rules does it say how often you have to have marshals...... maybe the solution is not to have them....
    2. If you have to have marshals how far apart do they need to be.

  4. #1204
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    Quote Originally Posted by wynn View Post
    Question......
    1. The waltz is 11+ miles where in the rules does it say how often you have to have marshals...... maybe the solution is not to have them....
    2. If you have to have marshals how far apart do they need to be.
    Must have 2 on road crossings so you could give us a Guard of Honour through Little Town and then that'll do

  5. #1205
    THE standout issue in this sad affair is the failure to understand how many started and how many finished the event. If accurate /dependable information had been available at the finish then a rescue may have been iniateted hours earlier.

    It is ( as has been proven) pointless having a set of 'rules/regulations' that RO and competitors expect not to be or have to enforce. As a much more 'casual' sport than track athletics this will prove to be a significant step change for organisers and competitors but one which in the 21st century has to be addressed

    accounting for your competitors is the most basic of those and if the london marathon have to and succeed in keeping track of 36000 then 150 shouldnt be an issue... ahh costs.. well having just clicked 'buy now' for a pair of fell shoes for no1 daughter at 54 quid a transponder looks like small change..

    if each competitor had there own or hired on the day the tenner spent might save a life and equally would hasten race results! clearly this could be introduced for the longer races first and rolled down to the shorter stuff but it would show to runners organisers insurers and coronors that the sport took a responsible attitude to accounting for its participants.

  6. #1206
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    Quote Originally Posted by withaY View Post
    THE standout issue in this sad affair is the failure to understand how many started and how many finished the event. If accurate /dependable information had been available at the finish then a rescue may have been iniateted hours earlier.

    It is ( as has been proven) pointless having a set of 'rules/regulations' that RO and competitors expect not to be or have to enforce. As a much more 'casual' sport than track athletics this will prove to be a significant step change for organisers and competitors but one which in the 21st century has to be addressed

    accounting for your competitors is the most basic of those and if the london marathon have to and succeed in keeping track of 36000 then 150 shouldnt be an issue... ahh costs.. well having just clicked 'buy now' for a pair of fell shoes for no1 daughter at 54 quid a transponder looks like small change..

    if each competitor had there own or hired on the day the tenner spent might save a life and equally would hasten race results! clearly this could be introduced for the longer races first and rolled down to the shorter stuff but it would show to runners organisers insurers and coronors that the sport took a responsible attitude to accounting for its participants.
    The London Marathon might keep track of their runners with chips, but they don't actually quantify starters vs finishers and contact non-finishers to find out if they're ok.

  7. #1207
    thousands of mountain bike races, triathlon, skiing, motor racing, moto cross and even radio controlled car races use simple transponders to record starters finishers lap times in real time is it impossible to imagine an application suited to endurance, long and short fell races that would be non invasive simple accurate and cost effective...

  8. #1208
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    Can anyone sum the useful posts in this thread in 125 words or less? Trying to make sense of it at the moment is like searching for gold nuggets in a public privy...

  9. #1209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo Dan View Post
    Can anyone sum the useful posts in this thread in 125 words or less? Trying to make sense of it at the moment is like searching for gold nuggets in a public privy...
    FRA issued draft safety document.
    It raised the profile of said document to make certain people (including some current ROs)examine more closely.
    Areas of concern raised about some of the terminology in the ROs documentation that is sent out for permitting purposes.
    The FRA have addressed some of those concerns, are still looking at some other matters and will probably come up with a temporary solution for 2014 which will be reviewed more extensively for the 2015 calendar.

    The debate has probably gone on longer than it should due to a few people claiming there are no issues to address, when even the FRA acknowledge that there are and perhaps the tone of the interventions of one or two current committee members didn't help either.
    Last edited by Witton Park; 03-11-2013 at 11:36 PM.

  10. #1210
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    Well written WP, but it's 129 words.

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