Glad he is ok! He didn't look too good when i passed, didn't hesitate to hand over the couple of spare buffs i had in my bag - fortunate in the knowledge that if the boot was on the other foot & my chips were down i know people would do the same.
Glad he is ok! He didn't look too good when i passed, didn't hesitate to hand over the couple of spare buffs i had in my bag - fortunate in the knowledge that if the boot was on the other foot & my chips were down i know people would do the same.
Last edited by Captain Shuffle; 12-05-2014 at 09:54 PM.
Fantastic work from Rhys and everyone who helped put the race on. Great to read of runners looking out for each other on route too and that everyone was safe.
Greatly enjoyed the race even if I felt like I was hauling myself round rather than running! Causey Pike certainly "sorted me out" haha But I was pleased with 21st on a tough day in the saddle.
Great race and vibe. Thanks again Rhys
Glad to hear you've warmed up Ali - and no trouble on the kit, I'd purposefully overcooked the packing :-)
Captain Shuffle - I believe Rhys has your buffs, I scouted around for you after the finish but must have missed you.Originally Posted by Captain Shuffle
Great organising Rhys - and always good to have somebody on hand to deliver kit to the top of a hill quick sharp! Having never been round the route before I'm glad you've got a good race back in the calendar.
Cheers & nice to meet you! Not sure I would have got round without your encouragement! Not sure on my next lakeland visit, I'm at sedbergh on sat & a couple of trawden runners are heading up to Fairfield on Saturday if he is at either he could pass them on.
Well chevin. Since you have failed to address my concenrs by PM which I would have preferred,
I am obliged to protest at your totally inappropriate characterisation of the legitimate concerns of worried RO - who carry the can as "unnecessary politicking"
The arguments surfaced in public because of the legitimate concerns of Wynn of the Waltz (and myself as a helper with that race - later others) - who are the RO you profess to show concern for - that you insult with the phrase that their protests were "unnecessary politicking"
Wynn was one of the only ones to actually to read those rules in september - why the others did not is beyond me, but not surprising given the lack of proper consultation, and seemingly an apathy amongst many RO.
She discovered her inability to comply with the wholly incompetent and dangerous drafting contained in them : which was potentially disastrous for her when combined with the double whammy of the clear and ridiculous statements that it would void her insurance if she failed to comply. (how can she have no "hazards?" - when all fell courses are full of them? - the drafter had not even read page 1 of any safety book)
Considering her race travels over the same ground as the sailbeck incident , and she read the inquest evidence with horror UKA role in that, and FRA prevent her from doing what they do themselves to escape liability, which is to become a limited company> So she had and has every right to be worried. She did not as she said "want to lose her house over a fell race"
So It is not politicking. And it is very necessary.
That was then compounded by the completely inappropriate response of the executive treating her like a delinquent schoolgirl : her protests were met with derision, the chair calling her "deluded" , (not to mention what the chair says about the previous sailbeck organiser behind his back) - our rule drafter called her "recalcitrant" because she refused to sign a load of inconsistent twaddle, in the hope it might be put right later.. No responsible person in their right minds,signs a legal document in anticipation that it might be changed, only in the knowledge of what is there at the time.
So She was not given the respect she has earned as one of the best RO in the business. In her company the executive and rule drafter, should have been listening, not talking.
In the end It was only at her behest and those around her, that some wholly idiotic statements were removed from rules from which all RO now have the benefit - but the changes do not go far enough.
Does not alter the fact that FRA is still out on a limb in safety terms, and there was no "competent" person allowed into the process of change, nor is the approach they are taking anything like comparable sports (or indeed home office guidelines for similar events - not that our safety committee, either know or care such things exist - and they resent outsiders pointing this out)
It is all done back of a fag packet/ seat of the pants. Our sport deserves better. So do our RO.
In short, it is not her fault that such a bad job was done of drafting the rules.
So please rescind your remark "unnecessary politicking". It is inappropriate.
So on to sailbeck 2014
Well done to the RO for the outcome of Sailbeck 2014, which I too am glad to see back, and someone filling the "hot seat"- but does not alter the fact that in keeping with proper safety practice, and as recommended in the related home office documents, there must be a review conducted because of the serious potential for disaster that might have occurred with events as they transpired.
Safety concerns itself with reviewing what might have been the outcome of such incidents, not just what did happen. And not just those that actually ended badly, for what can be learned from them. FRA thinks of safety only in terms of shutting doors after the horse has bolted - even then misunderstanding the door they have to shut. All events must be reviewed in hindsight, and plans amended as part of proper safety process.
So the competent safety officer (we do not have) should be reviewing this with the RO to determine what lessons are to be learned
From what I have gleaned from this thread:
- there are clearly a number of problems that surfaced, not least the rules as drafted, ( we have said so many times in the past, but nobody is listening) lull people into a false sense of security that "fra requirements are enough". They are not, and sailbeck 2014 proved it again. Some runners went out without enough kit (for them and the conditions - enough kit is subjective, not objective, and only because of fortunate support that cannot be guaranteed, disaster was averted.
It is just fortunate that those hypothermic runners were noticed and assisted , before they strayed out of the range of help, or the outcome could have been very different.
Also not enough is seemingly being heeded by runners in terms of navigation. Why is it those that went of course, a significant number appeared not to notice that in heading for grass moor they were travelling at over 45 degrees, even 90 degrees from the rough bearings they should have memorized in advance?
It is my view that the RO instructions to runners for an event like this should be to study the route on the map and "memorize the critical bearings and directions of travel so that they can be aware when they are travelling in substantively the wrong direction, demanding stopping and studying the map". The runners are not paying enough attention - and the runners instructions need beefing up because of it. Another point I have made in the past.
Both of the previous need review by a competent person in FRA with access to all the facts - not just what seems to have happened from information I have gleaned reading this forum (when and if they decide to appoint one) for, potential amendment in instructions to runners and dissemination
I await the report in fell runner of the outcome of the review, with interest and anticipation - and for the rule changes that should follow the review. But with the present people in charge, and their disregard for safety practice, I will not hold my breath waiting.
Last edited by alwaysinjured; 15-05-2014 at 09:00 AM.
Blimey!!! Rant over? Think he needs to take a break from the forum.....( Not wishing to get involved in a hot tempered debate but...) isn't the inherent risk involved what makes our sport exhilarating and exciting? Sure, we have to minimise the risk as much as possible but by making fell running completely safe it wouldn't be fell running. Were all grown ups and sometimes the weather /conditions catch us out...Sometimes we just have accidents that no one could predict. Having necessary procedures in place works like it did very successfully on Saturday and what could have been a disaster wasn't because the right people and systems were in place. Yes review is healthy but lets try and be positive please, ranting on here is just pointless and negative......
Chevin chose to characterize the legitimate concerns of such as Wynn the RO and me as "unnecessary politicking". He ( or she) got the response (he or she) deserved. I made similar points by PM to which he did not respond.Blimey!!! Rant over? Think he needs to take a break from the forum.....( Not wishing to get involved in a hot tempered debate but...) isn't the inherent risk involved what makes our sport exhilarating and exciting? Sure, we have to minimise the risk as much as possible but by making fell running completely safe it wouldn't be fell running. Were all grown ups and sometimes the weather /conditions catch us out...Sometimes we just have accidents that no one could predict. Having necessary procedures in place works like it did very successfully on Saturday and what could have been a disaster wasn't because the right people and systems were in place. Yes review is healthy but lets try and be positive please, ranting on here is just pointless and negative......
These failures to heed legitimate concerns of RO such as wynn, by the executive have lead to Wynn leaving FRA. That is not a good thing for our sport.
It is a mistake to believe that the systems were responsible for good outcome.
Chapeau to Rhys for his part in averting catastrophe, but the reality is, if one of those hypothermic runners straying of route had not been noticed by other runners, another fatality could have happened on the same course.
That would have been death knell for our sport - regardless of blame.
Media field day.
Review clearly needed - lessons to be learned - it was too close for comfort.
Last edited by alwaysinjured; 15-05-2014 at 10:35 AM.
My comment was not relating to RO's, not at all!!!
My comment was actually made out of frustration that superb and experienced race organisers are having to resort to gaining permits from SHR & WFRA rather than our own FRA, which should be doing everything it can to keep our sport together, but is instead indulging in all manner of ridiculous stuff and even spending time taking down forum posts it disagrees with etc etc.
It was also made out of frustration that because of this, I can now no longer just check the FRA calendar to see what races are on, I have to check FRA, SHR, WFRA & every individual club website to check for races such as Pendle Cloughs etc. A ridiculous situation i'm sure a fair few others within the sport agree with. It's starting to make the pro/amateur debacle look good.
I raced the AW this year in support of RO's such as Wynn, and I supported Rhys's race because it was important to me to support someone prepared to take on the race again.
So - thanks for being such a prick and trying to judge and humiliate me publicly without even getting close to the sentiments I was putting across. I didn't get your PM because I rarely log on, I just 'browse'. I'll await your public apology on this forum, appreciate you're obviously intent on fighting the good fight and downing anyone in your path, you're obviously a real crusader, just don't drag me into it 'cos to be fair, I just want to get on with supporting races in the best way I can.
Final point - I didn't notice any decent sentiments from you on the forum thread. Well done on taking 2 negative words out of my entire post praising the sport and the people in it.
What a t**t!
Thanks for clarification. Apologies If I misunderstood, but perhaps you will acknowledge I asked by PM twice what you meant...and got no response to either.
Well done you for supporting the sport.
I am glad you echo sentiment concerning fragmentation of the sport at the hands of our present leadership which is not a good thing.
If we are overly combative in trying to get action, we have had to be.
It is not my natural approach - but subtlety is ignored, as are any amount of documents sent to the safety committee.
I would much prefer dialogue behind the scenes, to which end, I asked the chair three times in the last two weeks about one specific issue on safety (which directly reduced the chances of waltz ever returning to FRA) , and got the usual response which is nothing at all with regard to the matter I related.
So I have got used to wilful lack of response, I assumed yours was the same. Sorry. Criticism accepted. I am perhaps the only one in this sorry episode that is happy to be proven wrong in this instance.
Last edited by alwaysinjured; 15-05-2014 at 10:38 AM.
Really enjoyable day out. Pity the weather was rubbish, but everybody was still smiling.
Kit check was the most thorough in any of the races I've competed in. Rhys asked for what the FRA stipulated as the minimum kit for the type of race. I chose to wear more and take more because of the conditions (leggings and long sleeve thermal) and on the top of Causey, I was pleased I did! I was surprised at some people wearing only vests (bit silly, given the weather, but I did tell them). It was interesting to see at the start the amount of kit some take. Lots of additions to the basic requirements, and given the conditions, they probably did the right thing. I would love to know whether the person(s) who where suffering with the wet and cold were adequately prepared. Perhaps they were, but failed to notice the signs, before the cold had set in. I ran in, and took with me, all the kit I usually take on a wet run in the hills (thermal, micro-bivvy bag, a gel and the usual kit requirements of a race). To me, a race is not really that different, other than you run a bit quicker. I'm planning a race for next year: A medium on the fells west of Helvellyn. I shall be wanting a thermal, food and a micro bivi whatever the conditions.
Phil
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