Brexit

[DrPatrickBarry]

EU and Irish Government decided to weaponize the Irish border for their own ends.

Are you saying the people of N.I, who voted 56% remain, are not that bothered about a hard border? The poll discussed in the FT article below would seem to disagree with you.

https://www.ft.com/content/aa2f4368-...4-2218e7146b04

You will now talk about "technical solutions". How long will it take for a a few republicans to go on a grand tour of border crossings with an angle grinder, and that will be the end of those cameras. Never mind the fact that I am not sure there is a camera yet that can detect that agricultural products crossing the border meet EU or UK standards.

You will need customs officials to protect the cameras and soldiers to protect the customs officials. Then all of a sudden, we are 20 years in the past.

In a House of Commons committee hearing George Hamilton the PSNI Chief Constable accused some Westminster politicians of failing to understand the dangers of terrorism in Northern Ireland post Brexit.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-45461120

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-36174545.html

But apparently Muddy Retriever knows better. Now why don't you enlighten us and tell us why the PSNI Police Chief and the Garda Siochana Commissioner Donal O Culain are both wrong?

[Muddy Retriever]

Absolutely, look at Labour & Corbyn, Five Star in Italy, Trump, Putin, and no end of other mistakes.

Five Star is interesting. They've only come into being because of the failed euro project that has stuck Italy in a deflationary trap. The euro is another example of EU hubris that has impoverished much of southern Europe.

[noel]

Five Star is interesting. They've only come into being because of the failed euro project that has stuck Italy in a deflationary trap. The euro is another example of EU hubris that has impoverished much of southern Europe.

While I agree the Euro hasn't helped much of Southern Europe, as they can't devalue their way out of debt, I'd be interested to see some figures on the overall effects of the Eurozone on Southern Europe. Presumably they get more spent on them too?

[DrPatrickBarry]

stuck Italy in a deflationary trap.

Now you are getting desperate, the Lire was such a becon of stability before the Euro.
Historical Chart of British Pound to Italian Lire: Year 1975 - 2001
https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/ba...gbp/GBP-to-ITL

I think the Italian problems are a lot closer to home.

[Muddy Retriever]

Are you saying the people of N.I, who voted 56% remain, are not that bothered about a hard border?

I've said nothing of the sort. You already know my position so i'm not sure why you are trying to suggest something else. There is no need for a hard border at all. So all that stuff about needing soldiers to protect border posts etc is totally irrelevant.

But apparently Muddy Retriever knows better. Now why don't you enlighten us and tell us why the PSNI Police Chief and the Garda Siochana Commissioner Donal O Culain are both wrong?

They might be correct if lots of border infrastructure was to be erected but nobody is suggesting doing that. Even in the event of no deal both the Irish Government and EU have said they wouldn't do it and the UK Government certainly wouldn't.

- The WTO have made it clear they don't require checks to be carried out at the border.
- HMRC has repeatedly said that there is no need for new border infrastructure.
- As I mentioned to you a few weeks ago, the Dutch customs expert Hans Maessen has called the Irish border a "fictitious problem". Last month he gave evidence to a House of Commons committee saying that it could be avoided by the comprehensive use of electronic declarations, use of customs brokers and HMRC carrying out customs inspection at company premises.

The truth of the Irish backstop was revealed a couple of weeks ago when Emmanuel Macron inadvertently let the cat out of the bag. He said that the EU wouldn't release the UK from it unless EU fisherman were given access to British waters. This demonstrates the true purpose of the Backstop. It is a device to control the UK and extort even more concessions.

[Muddy Retriever]

Now you are getting desperate, the Lire was such a becon of stability before the Euro.
Historical Chart of British Pound to Italian Lire: Year 1975 - 2001
https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/ba...gbp/GBP-to-ITL

I think the Italian problems are a lot closer to home.

Not desperate at all. On the contrary, in the past it was the flexibility of having a fluctuating currency that helped the Italian economy when it got into trouble. Before being in the euro, Italian growth was strong, it had quite an impressive industrial sector. Since the euro was introduced the Italian economy has barely grown at all and GDP remains below the levels it was before the financial crisis. Italy needs both a currency devaluation and the ability to set its own monetary policy, both of which are denied to it by being in the euro.

The euro has been a monumental failure setting a one size all currency strait-jacket on a very diverse group of countries. The next financial downturn may well hammer in the death nail.

[Muddy Retriever]

While I agree the Euro hasn't helped much of Southern Europe, as they can't devalue their way out of debt, I'd be interested to see some figures on the overall effects of the Eurozone on Southern Europe. Presumably they get more spent on them too?

Quite a good article here.

https://gefira.org/en/2016/11/19/hig...uling-classes/

[Wheeze]

Your last point is very important Muddy. The diversity of the countries and their economy made the whole structure of the EU impossible to manage once a certain size was reached. Instead, a wise course may have been to introduce 3 Euro zones, North, South and East, with their own economies reflecting their positions but subject to a project to produce convergence over, say, 25 years. As it was, bringing countries like Bulgaria into a level playing field was neither fair to the current member states or the new states who, like Greece, found it impossible to keep up to the standards suddenly applied.

[shaunaneto]

Quite a good article here.

https://gefira.org/en/2016/11/19/hig...uling-classes/

Questionable source that https://medium.com/dfrlab/electionwa...e-198e80253644

[Muddy Retriever]

Questionable source that https://medium.com/dfrlab/electionwa...e-198e80253644

How about this source?
https://www.theguardian.com/business...oseph-stiglitz

Or this one?
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/03/o...disasters.html