Brexiteers, just ignore this post!
This is a nice article, it's a pity that a lot of pro-EU politicians had not being doing, for the last twenty years, what Schams El Ghoneimi suggests. Maybe many of the misunderstandings and false impressions of the EU, would not have gained the traction that they did.
Alas too late now.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...itizen-debates
To me, the article is a thinly designed advert that fails to even examine the reality, peferring a list of objectives on which the EU has provably failed on most.
We knew exactly why we voted leave: for example the impossibility of the euro that beggars most southern states. It is remainers in my experience who have little concept of the reality of the institutional and anti democratic dysfunctionality of far too big a group of countries that cannot agree to save their lives, except on the answer no.
In return I would ask of remainers : Can you even list the previous currency union failures? ( which is all of them) do you even know the meaning of target 2 or ecb issuer limits? The silliness of ECB collateral rules and how they will collapse Italian banks? If not - remainers certainly have no basis to claim beexiteers don't know!
It is because we have a true understanding and impression we voted to leave.
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
I’m not sure you can pin all the blame on the far right. Plenty on the left want it too.
I’m not sure anyone is going to bother to answer you but if you define what definition you’re working from. It help if someone feels like responding.In return I would ask of remainers : Can you even list the previous currency union failures?
I am not answering but this is quite a good rant about currency unions, espically the comments at the bottom.
It is amazing how differently people can read history. Basically you can get it to say whatever you want.
https://gefira.org/en/2018/01/17/eur...t-and-present/
aint that the truth!
With currency unions that is simply not true. History is entirely consistent, and not spinnable on this. All failed. Which is why it is remarkable anyone tried the impossible yet again. In my view the euro destroyed the EU
Every currency union has failed in europe for the same reasons. From the 1860s union of france, italy etc, to the currency snake, to the ERM - the earlier austrian union even, they all failed. Or try the remarkably similar roublezone. You simply cannot combine differing economies trade imbalances and levels of debt under one exchange rate and interest rate, it cannot work. The interest rate that is killing italy is creating a property bubble in germany. Only if countries are fiscally united first can it work. Too late for that. Target 2/ italian bond yields says it is now in the death throws.
The result no socialist can support. 40 percent youth unemployment in the southern states. With literally no hope of recovery, all to feed the German status quo. The "safety" valve is exchange rate movements, and they simply cannot do that. The ever more destitute pupulations or german taxpayer fear of picking up the tab, the zombie banks and capital outflows will kill it. just a matter of when. Some politics are spinnable. Not this.Try pointing at a successful union! Like successful autocratic socialist states, they dont exist.
Last edited by Oracle; 04-03-2019 at 04:05 PM.
I've mentioned this before but one of my main concerns was the imbalance caused by widely differing economies of the countries under the one umbrella which was exacerbated by the rapid expansion of member states in the last two decades. If the EU planners had been a bit more canny and created, say 3 Euro zones (North, South and East)reflecting the differing economies with a project to achieve convergence over 25 years, I might have been a bit more optimistic about the project.
As it is, asking Bulgaria and France to share the same table is unfair to both parties and totally unrealistic.
I watched an interesting video on youtube about Italy and the Lira. I had not realized that devaluation had been such a key strategy for keeping themselves competitive for decades. Italy had the double whammy, in a couple of years, of joining the Euro (January 1, 1999) and China joining the WTO (11 December 2001).
They lost the ability to devalue and even if they could they just could not keep themselves competitive, against china, in manufacturing simple goods. The whole basis of their economic policies were undermined.
What I appreciate most about this thread is how we can all have a mainly sensible, calm, sometimes robust and sometimes a bit histrionic discussion without anyone causing too much offence. In open social discussions, one sometimes feels afraid to state which 50% you are in for fear of a vitriolic response!
Just noted that the Norwegians are heavily investing in the UK as they think we are a good bet in the longterm, irrespective of Brexit. I like Norway!
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