Brexit

[DrPatrickBarry]

Well yes they are.

Norway plus doesn't give leavers what they wanted and for remainers who want to see the UK as a full member of the EU, it doesn't give them what they want either.

It leaves the UK as a rule taker. As I said, worst of all worlds.

I suspect the reason so many MP's are keen on it is because they see it as a way back into the EU. I think they hope that people will eventually decide that since we aren't getting any of the benefits of leaving, we might as well be in the EU.

How is that an answer.

[Oracle]

The backstop is far worse than that.

First as destroying our negotiating position. "first give up your fishing rights before we can talk"...The first in a lot of one sided demands before we can do deals elsewhere.

Second as a deliberate act by the EU to foment civil unrest whichever happens.

The militia in ireland on opposite sides will not wear brussels position.One or other will come out of hiding. The unionists will not allow Northern ireland to be annexed by the south as it has, the republicans (including those north of the border) will not allow varadkar to build his wall across what they see as their country. Far from ensuring peace EU stupidity ensures civil unrest.

The only way is a technological invisible border, and would result in the stupidity of the EU checking goods from ireland reaching EU. It is that outcome varadkar wants to avoid. But the backstop would be worse by far.

Remainers need to recognise. This is not intended as a deal. It is intended as humiliation. It is why Selmayr, Weyand and the rest gloated about it. May should never have signed it. We must no deal for national self respect.

That's why I'm amazed the Remainers MPs and in particular Labour aren't supporting Mrs May. The reasons they give are usually more to do with the future declaration, which may as well be no there for all it's legal standing.
Labour can have all they ask for with the PMs deal.

I saw her plan and backstop described as a period of reflection the other day, where the EU can hold us, akin to a naughty corner, until we realise the error of our ways and ask to be let back out of the corner.

It maintains regulatory alignment, keeps us under EU rules almost certainly until the next General Election and blocks any clean Brexit.

[Muddy Retriever]

How is that an answer.

I'm not sure how to put it any clearer.

I think you were asking me if the interests of the people were necessarily different from big business. My answer is yes. Big Business has an interest in lobbying the EU to get all the regulations they want. That's not the interest of the rest of the population. They have quite different priorities be they leavers or remainers.

[bigfella]

I may be wrong, I often am, but wasn't the EU limit on vaccuum cleaners to 1600 watts and I don't think any Dyson had/has motors bigger than that. But I do take your point and I don't think limiting vacuum cleaners or kettles for that matter will have any real impact on energy consumption. And don't get me started on LED lamps, unreliable pieces of .... that they are.

[Stagger]

Not long now.
Leave the weak behind and fight for our country.

[DrPatrickBarry]

Well yes they are.

Norway plus doesn't give leavers what they wanted and for remainers who want to see the UK as a full member of the EU, it doesn't give them what they want either.

It leaves the UK as a rule taker. As I said, worst of all worlds.

I suspect the reason so many MP's are keen on it is because they see it as a way back into the EU. I think they hope that people will eventually decide that since we aren't getting any of the benefits of leaving, we might as well be in the EU.

I'm not sure how to put it any clearer.

I think you were asking me if the interests of the people were necessarily different from big business. My answer is yes. Big Business has an interest in lobbying the EU to get all the regulations they want. That's not the interest of the rest of the population. They have quite different priorities be they leavers or remainers.

How do the interests of the millions of people who work for, and/or use the products/services provided by those big businesses coincide with the interests of those big businesses?

[Muddy Retriever]

How do the interests of the millions of people who work for, and/or use the products/services provided by those big businesses coincide with the interests of those big businesses?

They often don't coincide, they often conflict. As I've already said large multi-nationals are able to rig the system in their favour by lobbying Brussels to get complex regulations, which penalsie smaller firms that don't have large compliance departments. This provides a barrier to entry. Without it smaller firms could compete better and consumers might well get lower prices and better services through increased competition.

Plus don't forget the overwhelming number of businesses in this country (who employ the large majority of people) don't export to the EU. Yet they are still subject to EU Single Market regulation.

[Stolly]

They often don't coincide, they often conflict. As I've already said large multi-nationals are able to rig the system in their favour by lobbying Brussels to get complex regulations, which penalsie smaller firms that don't have large compliance departments. This provides a barrier to entry. Without it smaller firms could compete better and consumers might well get lower prices and better services through increased competition.

Plus don't forget the overwhelming number of businesses in this country (who employ the large majority of people) don't export to the EU. Yet they are still subject to EU Single Market regulation.

I’d totally agree with you I if you were talking about the US; big business and lobby groups have totally bought the system over there. The EU competition commission though has had a pretty good record of taking big business on though hasn’t it? Google, Amazon, Facebook, MacDonalds and Starbucks being a few names that spring to mind.

Big business is super important because of the number of employees they employ, sub-contractors they contract and wealth they create. Yes they can also exploit opportunities given a free hand but like I said the EU have a pretty good record of taking these on. Funnily enough it’s individual companies setting up in individual low tax countries and trying to put a large chunk of their profits disproportionately through that particular tax haven that have especially been taken to task by the EU. Luxembourg and Ireland have both got into trouble over this with the EU

[DrPatrickBarry]

They often don't coincide

They often DO coincide. There are millions of people working for corporations that do extensive trade with the EU, they most definitly have an interest in the success of those "large corporations". There are countless numbers of people reliant on EU medicines that are produced by "large coroprations" and approved by the European Medicines Agency who are unsure if they will still be able to recieve their vital supplies in two weeks time.

[DrPatrickBarry]

Google, Amazon, Facebook, MacDonalds and Starbucks being a few names that spring to mind.

Stolly not to mention Microsoft and Apple.

There was a brilliant win for Supermac’s, a little Irish fast food chain, in the European Union Intellectual Property Office (EUIPO) a couple of weeks ago in a david vs goliath battle against MacDonalds.

If fact one of most successfull and visible EU success is the micro USB adaptors (EU common external power supply (2009 Common EPS Memorandum of Understanding))on mobile devices. I must admit I don't understand how Apple have managed to avoid that.