New safety rules

[mr brightside]

Yes but you are making an unknown decision.. how far off is someone? They may think they are on the route, yet in reality searching a piece of hillside way off the route..

Look at Jura? Wasn't it Rob Jebb who ended up at the back of the island?

We've had a few in North Wales return to the start of the race in Landrovers...

I remember the first time i went up Skiddaw from the Bassenthwaite side. I spent about 3/4hr wandering a hillside trying to work out if i was on the side of Skiddaw or not. Turned out i was below Carl Side and had mistakenly picked up a trod to nowhere. The confusion i was feeling seems silly now, but you have to cut your teeth in the real world on a nice clear summers afternoon in order to develop your skills; you have to learn to walk before you can run.

Half of learning to navigate is placing yourself in relation to topographical features i think, and that can't really be taught. When i look at a landscape now i see it as contour lines and legend, it's like Neo seeing The Matrix.

[IainR]

I remember the first time i went up Skiddaw from the Bassenthwaite side. I spent about 3/4hr wandering a hillside trying to work out if i was on the side of Skiddaw or not. Turned out i was below Carl Side and had mistakenly picked up a trod to nowhere. The confusion i was feeling seems silly now, but you have to cut your teeth in the real world on a nice clear summers afternoon in order to develop your skills; you have to learn to walk before you can run.

Half of learning to navigate is placing yourself in relation to topographical features i think, and that can't really be taught. When i look at a landscape now i see it as contour lines and legend, it's like Neo seeing The Matrix.

IanDP said about practice the other day.. thats the key.. a course can teach you skills but much of that is fairly much logical and common sense, handrailing, ticking off features, aiming off.. using height.. there's some theory, GR's and how to use a compass, but recognising contours and what that land looks like is something which just takes practice,.. at walking pace.. slowly finding harder and harder points..

I find I'm rusty even now, in europe you often never need to use a map even in places like Chamonix, Siere, its all signed and big trails so I just don't get out with a map at all.

[IanDarkpeak]

Dark peak has recently put on a non certified Mountain skills course for it's members. The aim was to teach a bit of navigation, mountain skills like awareness of Hypothermia, what to do when it goes pear shaped, kit to carry, dangerous ground, water crossings, etc. It was organised and run by a qualified ML (C Betts). I had to drop out at the last minute due to work commitments as did a nurse. We will be running more. There is talk of putting it out to other clubs but I want to talk it over with others first.

Just a thought would any club be interested in this? As It says it won't "Certify" that you are now skilled but hope fully it will allow a bit of experience and hill knowledge to rub off?

Pm me if interested.

[sbrt]

IanDP said about practice the other day.. thats the key.. a course can teach you skills but much of that is fairly much logical and common sense, handrailing, ticking off features, aiming off.. using height.. there's some theory, GR's and how to use a compass, but recognising contours and what that land looks like is something which just takes practice,.. at walking pace.. slowly finding harder and harder points..

I find I'm rusty even now, in europe you often never need to use a map even in places like Chamonix, Siere, its all signed and big trails so I just don't get out with a map at all.

True if you dont use it you lose it but It helps if you know what to practice, which is what a course can help with.

When I started out I had no fell running friends so I went on a course. Then spent time in the hills practising(getting lost in the clag).

[alwaysinjured]

True if you dont use it you lose it but It helps if you know what to practice, which is what a course can help with.

When I started out I had no fell running friends so I went on a course. Then spent time in the hills practising(getting lost in the clag).

It is important to recognise this thread is about the safety rules, not about useful advise for RO and runners about runner safety.

The two are getting intermingled, and that is a major part of what seems to be a problem with the rules.

Am increasingly concerned by what I understand is UKA view of the recent problems, and disappointed that has not been published since it was in essence a public hearing .

In addition, if as I understand it correctly the coroner explicitly cleared the RO of negligence at the recent inquest, I am left wondering why that (arguably one of the most important issues) was not reported at the time of posting the statement on the main site,. It would I suspect be helpful to those concerned. Perhaps those present can confirm that.

.

[TheGrump]

Am increasingly concerned by what I understand is UKA view of the recent problems, and disappointed that has not been published since it was in essence a public hearing .

In addition, if as I understand it correctly the coroner explicitly cleared the RO of negligence at the recent inquest, I am left wondering why that (arguably one of the most important issues) was not reported at the time of posting the statement on the main site,. It would I suspect be helpful to those concerned. Perhaps those present can confirm that.

.

After 60+ posts and thousands of words, it is clear that you misunderstand many aspects of the law. An inquest gathers facts, it explicitly is not its role to exonerate or apportion blame; that is for other legal processes to deal with if necessary.
The Cumbria Deputy Coroner has issued a narrative conclusion, and has stated he will be formally writing to the FRA, which is legally required to reply. It is only the court documents that matter. Until this process is complete, it might be prudent to keep quiet.

[alwaysinjured]

After 60+ posts and thousands of words, it is clear that you misunderstand many aspects of the law. An inquest gathers facts, it explicitly is not its role to exonerate or apportion blame; that is for other legal processes to deal with if necessary.
The Cumbria Deputy Coroner has issued a narrative conclusion, and has stated he will be formally writing to the FRA, which is legally required to reply. It is only the court documents that matter. Until this process is complete, it might be prudent to keep quiet.

Thanks for the response.

I understood that issue was raised explicitly - Since you have apparently contradicted , I will indeed confirm that with my source. I thought the process had to all intents concluded other than coroners duty to comment on ways to improve for the future.

I understand enough about law - and have managed corporate saftey - to have raised serious questions which so far have been met with mockery and otherwise sidestepped: apparently again. Perhaps for example you would like to comment on some of the points I actually made before dismiss them as "misunderstanding"?

Such as the wisdom or otherwise of stating "No hazards in compulsory sections" in fell races when there clearly are hazards, and what is mandated is evidently impossible?"

Or the generic comment I made, that started this, that the rules and procedures and compliance to them will be subjected to scrutiny should the worst happen, as indeed it recently has - for which reason wording MUST be chosen with extreme care.

Whether you are aware of it or not, I am not the only one who is concerned.

[Witton Park]

I think the Grumps comments shows he is most likely a committee member or else how would he be able to speak as he did. I think that is quite worrying if I'm right, because his attitude stinks.

[noel]

Until this process is complete, it might be prudent to keep quiet.

Good luck with that.

[Mike T]

After 60+ posts and thousands of words, it is clear that you misunderstand many aspects of the law. An inquest gathers facts, it explicitly is not its role to exonerate or apportion blame; that is for other legal processes to deal with if necessary.
The Cumbria Deputy Coroner has issued a narrative conclusion, and has stated he will be formally writing to the FRA, which is legally required to reply. It is only the court documents that matter. Until this process is complete, it might be prudent to keep quiet.

Inquests cannot find anyone guilty in the strict legal sense but verdicts they can arrive at include unlawful killing and accidental death contributed to by neglect; it is usually clear at whom they are "pointing the finger", and further legal processes may logically follow.