Brexit

[DrPatrickBarry]

As usual Pat, those figures are misleading. The only country above us in the top 10 with a population more than London is Germany. For somewhere like Luxembourg with only 540K inhabitants, a small number of immigrants can put them at the top of that table.
Here is the graph in full. I'd say we are just below Germany as to the most immigrants absorbed and ahead of all the others in that top 10.
Attachment 8496

It is "per head of population" that matters. Ireland (current population about 4.5m) is full of Poles, they are everywhere. The local shop in my parent's little village has a couple working there, most of the staff at my uncles nursing home are non-irish. Granted the absolute numbers would be low compared to the the UK but their visibility is much greater. Ireland has been exporting people to the UK, USA, Australia, etc for over a hundred years, and I would like to think those people have had a positive effect on the host countries. I suppose that makes the Irish more tolerant now the situation has reveresed. The UK has had a very different history.

[Mike T]

Brexit can help, but subject to Govt policy.

The pull factors of high wages and benefit top-ups, along with the comparatively excellent education, health etc have no brake mechanism at the moment.
There is the possibility of applying a brake once this process is completed.

That will reduce the over-supply of labour for unskilled jobs.

(it can actually be done in conjunction with increasing the supply of skilled labour)

I would then add some UK policies to help - something like this.

1. Measures to restrict the use of agency work. We've seen the Sports Direct warehouse where almost all are agency staff.
Employers should not be able to outsource their responsibility like this, so say a 10% max limit on the amount of labour that can be brought in through agencies with possible exceptions for seasonal periods such as we already have in the working time directive.

2. Same goes for zero hours. There is a place for it, my daughter actually opted for bank work rather than fixed contract as it suited her.
But again a limit - eg. employers with more than 10 employees cannot have more than 10% of their staff on zero hours contracts.

It is also possible to force employers to issue contracts based on (for example) the previous periods average working hours.

3. Address the issues with employers NI. 0% to £156 per week and then 13.8% on all above that. It incentivises an employer to keep pay below or as close to £156 a week.
I would fix it at a flat rate of perhaps 8% on all pay.
I would gradually phase it out.
It is a jobs tax in effect and it would help by cutting Labour costs

4. We often have pockets of unemployment that are detached from areas where there are jobs but it only takes a little imagination to resolve it.
eg. Lincolnshire around Boston and Sleaford is known as an area where the employers seem to have a need for unskilled Labour that cannot be filled locally.
North East Lincolnshire around Cleethorpes, Grimsby, Scunthorpe has higher than average unemployment and areas of deprivation.
It shouldn't be that difficult to work out a way to link the two together as they are 30 miles apart.

Just a few ideas and not all of them Brexit linked of course.

Lots of good ideas - but how many of them need us to leave the EU before they can be implemented?

[anthonykay]

The UK is not a very strong magnet
EU Migrants per head of population
1 Luxembourg
2 Malta
3 Ireland
4 Austria
5 Sweeden

10 UK



http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...ants)_YB16.png

Possibly the most interesting feature of this graph is that the countries which are in the European Economic Area but outside the EU all have more immigration (per head of population) than the UK. Immigration clearly correlates with economic prosperity, and not with EU membership. Apparently Australia's much-vaunted points system also gives it a higher immigration rate than the UK.

[Witton Park]

Apparently Australia's much-vaunted points system also gives it a higher immigration rate than the UK.

That misses the point Anthony. During the debate examples have been gives and jumped on such as the Norway example when it comes to trade. They are mere examples.
So for example to be able to enter Australia you need to score 60 points.
25-32 age gives you 30 points, 45+ nil.
UP to 20 points for speaking English.
Up to 20 points for high skills.
+ other measures.

If Australia want to lower or raise the bar they can make the requirement 65 or 70.

If they want to increase the number of doctors for example, they could introduce a higher points score for the qualification.

The point is, they have a degree off control and can turn it on and off like a tap reacting to the circumstances at the time and the policy of the elected Govt.

Lots of good ideas - but how many of them need us to leave the EU before they can be implemented?

Well Brexit itself, when combined with an immigration policy will have an effect.

The problem with implementing some of the other policies is that it's easier just to recruit from outside, as dealing with an issue like No4 requires a degree of effort.
It's a bit like the recruitment of staff for the NHS from overseas. Why do we have to do it? Because we have become lazy and don't train enough ourselves.
We are bleeding overseas states of their skills they have invested in.

It is "per head of population" that matters.
THat's probably because it suits you to make that point.

But what about population density?

UK is 50% more densely populated than Luxembourg, 3 times more than Austria, 4 times more than Ireland and 12 times more than Sweden.

The migratory effect on England is more pronounced in England than the other Home Nations.

Unfortunately racists (whatever their number or percentage) did attach themselves to the cause and subsequently this became a part of the campaign propaganda and the media reporting.
Some say UKIP is racist (I don't share that opinion)
But some UKIP supporters did vote Remain (I do scratch my head at that one )
so racists are on the Remain side (if you are of he opinion that UKIP are racist)

[molehill]

Unfortunately racists (whatever their number or percentage) did attach themselves to the cause and subsequently this became a part of the campaign propaganda and the media reporting.
Some say UKIP is racist (I don't share that opinion)
But some UKIP supporters did vote Remain (I do scratch my head at that one )
so racists are on the Remain side (if you are of he opinion that UKIP are racist)

I haven't mentioned anything about UKIP or inferred anything about UKIP - what on earth leads you to think I may consider UKIP racist from my post? You are jumping to conclusions.
My comments were about the referendum and Brexit campaign to which the racist element attached themselves (I doubt there are many racists who voted remain) and following on from the referendum, an increase in racist incidents are being reported through the country. This is picked up by the media and "linked" to the Brexit voters by association which has done the campaign and majority of voters a disservice..

[Roy Scott]

I haven't mentioned anything about UKIP or inferred anything about UKIP - what on earth leads you to think I may consider UKIP racist from my post? You are jumping to conclusions.
My comments were about the referendum and Brexit campaign to which the racist element attached themselves (I doubt there are many racists who voted remain) and following on from the referendum, an increase in racist incidents are being reported through the country. This is picked up by the media and "linked" to the Brexit voters by association which has done the campaign and majority of voters a disservice..

When over 70% of 64 million people vote for one of two options, you can be assured that there are racists on one side. However was it significant, I say no. The media always looks for extremes and their has been some very irresponsible reporting post election. Yesterday I heard Adrian Durham reporting that he had heard that a Polish person had been asked 'when they would pack their bags'. Whilst this is deplorable, to report on a single anecdotal incident potentially spreads further hate and division.

[shaunaneto]

When over 70% of 64 million people vote for one of two options

Less than that unless you consider the third option a vote.

I'm only picky as I've had to listen to the 45% of Scotland thing for the last couple of years.

[molehill]

When over 70% of 64 million people vote for one of two options, you can be assured that there are racists on one side. However was it significant, I say no. The media always looks for extremes and their has been some very irresponsible reporting post election. Yesterday I heard Adrian Durham reporting that he had heard that a Polish person had been asked 'when they would pack their bags'. Whilst this is deplorable, to report on a single anecdotal incident potentially spreads further hate and division.

Yes, you have my point, I don't think and hope there are not many full on racists, but those that are racists and show it are reported on by the media and make news, unfortunately (for the Brexit campaign) they have tended to be associated with Brexit, both leading up to the referendum and now after the result.

[anthonykay]

Apparently Australia's much-vaunted points system also gives it a higher immigration rate than the UK.

That misses the point Anthony.
. . .
The point is, they have a degree off control and can turn it on and off like a tap reacting to the circumstances at the time and the policy of the elected Govt.

Yes, I know that and you know that. But I got the impression that a lot of Leave supporters assumed that they were going to get less immigration, rather than controlled immigration. And it doesn't deal with another very important point that you raise:

The problem with implementing some of the other policies is that it's easier just to recruit from outside, as dealing with an issue like No4 requires a degree of effort.
It's a bit like the recruitment of staff for the NHS from overseas. Why do we have to do it? Because we have become lazy and don't train enough ourselves.
We are bleeding overseas states of their skills they have invested in.

I am not very optimistic that any future controlled immigration policy will include ethical considerations about taking doctors, engineers, etc from poor countries where they are desperately needed. I have a friend who lived for a few years in Malawi and Zambia, and voted Leave because of the effect that EU trade policies have had on African economies. He thinks that Britain, out of the EU, will be able to trade more fairly with Africa and help to build up its economy. I hope he is right, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Witton Park]

I haven't mentioned anything about UKIP or inferred anything about UKIP - what on earth leads you to think I may consider UKIP racist from my post?

nothing and I didn't.
I was saying that some say UKIP is racist and for those that do think that, some of them voted Remain.

My use of "you" wasn't aimed at you specifically. Sorry of you thought it was

I wonder though with Labour pushing pro EU and the issues in the Labour party with this topic how many racists also voted with the Remain side?
I would guess a few.