I suppose when you elect the most useless leader in known history, you can't expect any less.Originally Posted by Witton Park
I suppose when you elect the most useless leader in known history, you can't expect any less.
It would be a constitutional outrage if they held another referendum before enacting the first one, indeed having blocked it as best as they can.
It would have no stature. What will they do if the score is one all? hold best of 3 Keep voting till they get one they like? Cameron rightly called it a " neverendum"
They cannot hold it on a deal. There isn't one yet. Just a demand for money.
That alone should prove to starry eyed remainers how pathetic the EU really is.
We will have to call their bluff, and prove what little hold they have. Eu refuse to negotiate a deal precisely because MPs openly state they will Not no deal.
Another vote on any question would be the most divisive act in history. The idiots who suggest another referendum have no concept of how badly EU will trample us if we ask to return. It was a no return decision.
In all this time I have not heard a single argument for remain that stands intellectual scrutiny. Just a lot of hot air and an echo of misconceptions about the EU. It is a pity so few study it. Most MPs that talk about customs unions and single market do not even seem to know what they are! Not surprising when the EU spends more on misinformation by the propaganda and advertising department than even Coca Cola!
Last edited by Oracle; 14-05-2019 at 03:20 AM.
Forumites STUNNED. Mystery poster’s SOURCE of ludicrous soft-drink claim EXPOSED as Daily Express MADE-UP story
Last edited by Derby Tup; 14-05-2019 at 07:05 AM.
There are lots of issues with this, which is why before the 2016 referendum most of the commentators said this would be a one off.
This is going back over old ground, but referenda are on constitutional matters that give a direction for the politicians to sort out the detail, whether it is Brexit, devolution, changes to the voting system...
Here's an example why.
Let's say we had a set up at the 2016 referendum where we were given the following options on a transferable vote basis. A sort of public indicative vote process, where the last opti0on was eliminated each round.
1. Just leave with WTO.
2. Leave with Canada Style FTA
3. Leave with EEA
4. Leave with Customs Union
5. Leave with EEA & Customs Union
6. Remain with negotiated powers repatriated.
7. Remain with a block on further integration.
8. Remain and integrate closer.
That more or less covers all bases.
I think 2 represents the Brexit most leavers were expecting so I think it is safe to say that in 2016 that would have been the outcome we'd have settled on by the end of an indicative vote process.
However, whether our politicians or the EUs we are told that we cannot have 1,2,3 or 4.
It doesn't matter whether you come from a Brexit or Remain standpoint. This would be the most democratic way of allowing the public to direct Government.
But based on what the Government, Commons and EU are doing, they would not be able to implement the outcome of the referendum.
This is why referenda have to be directional and then the Government gets on with it.
The problem is not that it cannot be done.
It is that the executive on both sides of the channel is fighting tooth and nail to avoid it being done.
A 2nd referendum is just part of the ruse to try and give them a road map to cancelling the whole thing, indicated by those putting the idea forward only wanting to include two options for any 2nd referendum.
Remain and May's deal.
Remain already defeated in a public vote.
May's deal defeated in three Common's votes.
Richard Taylor
"William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
Sid Waddell
I just want to add a little more on the Belfast Agreement, the principal of which I support.
I don't believe for one minute that a WTO Brexit would threaten the agreement, but let's for a minute assume that it might.
Back in 1998 the agreement was ratified by public referenda.
In Ireland 1.5 million people voted with 94% in favour of the BA.
In Northern Ireland 1 million people voted with 71% in favour of the BA.
I didn't get a vote.
No one at the time advised that the signing of the BA might in the future create an insurmountable obstacle to the UK or Ireland leaving the EU.
In the same year Ireland had a referendum to ratify the Amsterdam Treaty. 40% were against. So there was a level of Eurosceptism in Ireland for 40% to vote against a rather uncontroversial treaty.
Would they have voted differently in the BA ref had they understood that leaving the EU would be nigh on impossible after ratification?
Maybe the Northern Irish would?
Probably not enough to change the result, but enough to make it a lot closer North of the border.
Should other parts of the UK have been involved in this seeing as the BA was creating a constitutional lock on the whole of the UK?
2.5 million voters set up a treaty, only 1 million of them UK citizens and only 700,000 of them voting for it. A treaty that is now binding the hands of the rest of the UK following a constitutional path it elected to take.
And this is where referenda are a huge problem.
I'm a UK national. I love it up Scotland. I don't get up as much as I would like, same with Wales. They are part of my country.
When the SNP seek to partition part of my country, I don't get a voice just because I don't live north of the border, and neither do any of the Scots that have come down to live in England or Wales.
The irony here of course is that the SNP argue for the votes of ex-pats to be included in the EU referendum, but decline to allow their own ex-pats to be counted in the Scots indi ref.
So in my opinion, all referenda that affect the UK constitutional position should be held across the whole of the UK.
Richard Taylor
"William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
Sid Waddell
Well your "constitutional outrage" is another's "slightly eyebrow-raising" and, of course, the reason you get so aerated is because you liked the outcome of the referendum.
However setting aside the venality of politicians, the stupidity of the electorate & etc, one could argue that the context of the referendum is rather remote from where we now find ourselves at this point in our island story and a statesman-like decision could be to test the current validity of the referendum?
Obviously you will not agree with that concept because you are as blinkered as May - although somewhat more intemperately apoplectic in your language, whereas for my part I must stop reading biographies of Churchill!
I thought you were a stickler for process Graham. Can you recall other UK democratic results that have been parked in such a way by the executive for a rerun later?
Parliament going to the people for a decision, whether at an election or a referendum and carrying on as they have is probably more of an issue than Brexit itself. I can imagine Maduro, Putin, Erdogan and their ilk will doff their cap to it as they seek to justify their actions in the future.
Richard Taylor
"William Tell could take an apple off your head. Taylor could take out a processed pea."
Sid Waddell
But the problem is that was never on offer, because the UK prime minister said there will never be a hard border on the island of Ireland.
Now people will say there can be a technological solution to the problem, and I will ask yet again where is that detailed technogical solution published, and people will not be able to answer becasue it does not exist.
And therein lies the root of the problem.
And don't get me wrong here, I am a remainer, but in no way can I see the UK remaining in the EU. Probably a hard Brexit is the best thing. Then in 10 years we will know weather it is a land of milk and honey or a complete fiasco and the UK looks to come back in with its tail between it legs.
Always assuming there's an EU to come back to.
I would have thought the break up of the UK would be more likely.
It may be a different EU over the next couple of decades but it will still be there.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote